Talk:Andrew Loeb
From the Quicksilver Metaweb.
Thanks Timberbee. Though in reading Cryptonomicon once again, I did catch a possible error. It's mentioned several times that Bob Loeb is a white-shoed Orange County lawyer; When did lovely Santa Barbara become part of Orange County? Knowing that it is wrong MADE it unseen, I replaced it with the correct Santa Ana mentally. Whoa ... What seems ironic in the book is that the FBI's consideration of Andrew as the Digibomber triggered his new interest in computers. Randy sees Andrew eat bugs -- so his finish merely complete a cycle of sorts ... - Sparky 00:34, 2004 Jan 8 (PST)
This note was to the original poster -- Read the book. Cayuse hunting skillsets may not effectively work in a tropical jungle with WWII boobytraps.
Neutrality
I would disagree with much of this article, Sparky, indeed, it's the tone as much as the content that draws my attention.
Neal Stephenson gives us no reason to believe that Andrew Loeb's Survival Skills are all that. Though, if you listen to Men such as Tom Brown Jr., they will tell you that it is Attitude, above all else which seperates those who survive from those who thrive. Andrew is compelled -- others may have made him temporarily insane in pursuit of goals at his expense; And, to Charlene (Randy's ex), the mania is evident. At that point in his life Randy is too socially inept to catch the cues. And when they were friends, Loeb teaches Randy a lesson about choice and hunger in the Pacific Northwest woods. While Randy is a biased observer -- Andrew's skills would be expert in Washington State region.
We see nothing BUT attitude from Andrew Loeb. Randy recognizes his adversaries advantage right off the bat, that he is crazy, and further, that his particular insanity has a severe focus, that of the destruction of Randy Waterhouse.
We see the validity of this diagnosis very quickly. The negation of self. Not merely the survival of a crippling blow, but enough attachment to the World of men to apply a life saving measure.
Andrew Loeb is Insane, but he is clearly not crazy...
Well, sort of.
Clearly there is a certain amount of skill involved as well. The ability to make, and utilize arrows which reflect a particular aboriginal peoples, we do see that these shafts WERE manufactured from local materials, for the Book tells us they were yet Green. Constructing Shafts, truing them, fashioning points, fletching, and attaching both on the fly, this clearly implies skill, particularly when we see the effectiveness of the finished product.
From what we see of Andrew Loeb both his skills and his mindset clearly gave him the advantage in this particular situation. But his single minded focus also spell his doom.
Is it a believeable scene?
Yes, I would say so. Someone who can survive the shock of losing a leg, and still manage to function and adapt, is also not likely to be to worried about ruining their suit, nor would they be to concerned about bedding down with poisonous, indiginous plants, animals or insects. It is fear, which is one's greatest obstacle, in the wild, the fear which resides within our own breast. It is ovious that Andrew Loeb has excised THAT particular demon, but, yet again, remains attached enough to actually do a good stalk. We aren't shown a Fool, blindly rushing in on a Banzai! charge, at least, not until the very end. Even then, the final element of the conflict was not Quite with no hope. I don't see the character Andrew as a fool; A tool perhaps. There is a clear division to be drawn between the actions of the soldiers Goto, Bobby -- and by extension Douglas -- with that of Andrew.
The overall tone and content of this article suggests that much of this is Not about Andrew Loeb at all, though, but rather about the emotions, and images, which are called into being within the piece's Author's own psyche.
I would not know where to begin editing this Article. It is certainly nothing like the many other Articles which, matter - of - factly, denote the various characters of the Book.
timberbee 04:29, 5 Jan 2004 (PST)
You have my permission to edit the article. The original author seemed to extoll what he saw as the proper confrontational survivalist mindset of Andrew Loeb without bothering to read the book. Any community entry can be edited to finess the Neutral Point of View (NPOV) we strive for at the Metaweb. I'm only human and that I failed to get the self professed troll to actually read the book may have leaked through while I wrote the second entry, - Sparky 04:59, 2004 Jan 5 (PST)
It's a Difficult Question
The question of how to edit this article. First, in that this character was not terribly interesting to me, personaly. Secondly, I'm not sure that the question of "Survivalist" skills are pertinent here. The erroneous original post presenting Loeb as "Jungle Fighter" brought me there.
Survival
All we really see here, in the way of survival, are two things, One is the arrow, which also implies a bow, the second is the stalk.
The suit is important point, for me, this implies that he was likely to have been in the mix of cameras and Journalists. It also says that he saw an opportunity to shadow his old adversary, the crafting of the bow seems to hammer this point home, that he saw the potential to bring this conflict to a Dramatic, and Final conclusion, and that he took it. We see nothing whatsoever about any long term stalk, no "Survival" in the jungle, this wasn't Goto Dengo off in Papua New Guinea, this was acrazy person setting out to kill someone, someone they were obvioulsy Highly fixated on
My impression was that he was in the country around the time (The Dentist became more friendly to our heroes) as General Wing's catspaw, the sunburnt bald head implies an actual duration of time spent in the rainforest.
Crazy People Are Not To Be Dismissed
As opponents, crazy people are... just nuts. Forget reasoning with them, abandon any attempts which rely on intimidation, Pain, or the threat of overwhelming physical violence, culminating in Death. In order for any technique, which uses these elements, to work, cooperation is Demanded from the other party. In short, A crazy, but highly dedicated, and tightly focused individual is an Extremely grave threat, not to be lightly dismissed.
Is much of this relevant?
All of this, we are discussing here, is in the nature of a spoiler. We only see this at the very end of the Book. Do we, as readers, need to see this as a focus when reading a Bio of Andrew Loeb? I am at a complete loss as to how to edit an article, such as this, without deleting everything that pertains to the final battle between Randy and Andrew, other than to say something simple about Andrew Loeb recognizing and seizing the opportunity to, once and for all, put an end to his, self declared, Arch Nemesis, Randy Waterhouse, after all of his previous attempts have failed.
I really don't see tha tthere is much build up for this. Though the scene, in and of itself, was believable, it was something of a surprise, despite the pairing of The Dentist and Andrew Loeb. I never felt that Mr. Loeb was anything other than peripheral to Randy's World, and my feeling was that nothing in the story required that Andrew Loeb Himself, be the attorney whom the Dentist used. For me, leaving him out, and avoiding the final conflict, would not have greatly diminished the story. Remember - Paul Comstock, US Attorney General also used him. His father Earl had to tell him about the gold. To end, Andrew Loeb may fill a vital role in this book, he may be the counter part to Nell's cruel teacher, or he may not. He is certainly some orm of petty tyrant, and did teach Randy some valuable lessons early on, and, through him, he answered the question which Douglas Shaftoe put to him just moments before. :timberbee Orc? I think more of a pawn, about to be advanced to a new level of power, taken off the board. You have valid points though.
A comment on Woodcraft Skills in Neal Stephenson's Works
In every one of the Author's books so far, Wood Lore, or Survival skills SEEM to have played a part. Nell learned to make fire, travel, and, generaly, be at ease in the Natural World. In the eyes of the Illustrated Primer for Young Ladies, this seemed to be an important element of her Education.
In Quicksilver, Jack displayed a great amount of Wood Lore.
In Cryptonomicon, when Goto Dengo arrives as One of only two survivors at the Japanese Base on Papau New Guinea, he is asked what he can contribute. Every aspect he offers is explained away as utterly without worth, until... Until he explains that he had survived for months in the Jungle. What did he eat? was demanded of him. When his reply was "Bats and Magots", Get me some, was the response.
There are so many aspects of Survival -- wilderness survival, Natural Lore, the ability to "Walk in Twilight"-- in Mr. Stephenson's books that it is difficult to remember them all. They do appear to be a strong, vital thread. Goto's ordeal, beginning with the sharks, is an amazing journey. One that most of us do not encounter in our day to day, ignore the seasons, ignore ourselves, lives. It is one on the edge of madness and self, life and death in it's extremes, a practical relationship with the Universe around us.
That Andrew Loeb should share this, in the end, is both surprising, and not. I would not dismiss him as "An Urban Survivalist", though he does seem to be more like a Tom Brown graduate than anything else. :timberbee 15:55, 5 Jan 2004 (PST)
IMO -- Tom Brown is more spiritual and likable; Unlike Andrew Loeb who did a stint as an abused victim of Satanists before his Orange County Dad had him rescued. Andrew is identified as fractally weird by Randy. Which meant to me -- that as deep as you went -- the complexity remained. You've my permission to edit the article to reduce tone. Remember Randy sees Andrew as Gollum, not as Saruman or Sauron. Be well - Sparky 21:16, 2004 Jan 5 (PST)
Does merely indentifying EVIL turn on the magical aspect of the wrath of Enoch? Who is his double in the baroque cycle is what im wondering....Im assuming de Gex, primary nemesis and all, but this is not alluded to anywhere; near as i can see. There is the Satanist cousin of the evil Padre.
A.A: Golem is not helping those who read the book. - Sparky
Note also there are different types of crazy. A sociopath is insane but clearly capable of rational thought, ability to plan and take rational actions in pursuit of his or her insane goals (killing people). Note also Hiro Protagonists experience with the Japanese concept of Zanshin. Andrew Loeb, for all his evil and insanity, has the zanshin necessary to be an effective and expert luddite survivalist. - Mike Lorrey