Talk:Stephenson:Neal:Quicksilver:Enoch Root
From the Quicksilver Metaweb.
Who is Enoch Root?
I liked the suggestion that Enoch is King Solomon. Or Perhaps he is the angel Metatron. Maybe even a space traveller from an advanced race. Has anyone suggested that Enoch is actually an Annunaki? Maybe even Enki himself? These roles are not necessarily inconsistant. For someone who is immortal many personalities could be played out over time. Maybe Enoch is all of the above. (Arden) Arden? Hunt down Phil Farmer's Time's Last Gift. - Sparky
Thanks Sparky -- buying it now Arden
I have a sneaking suspicion that the answer involves a certain Asian King pegged with, among other things, possession of secret knowledge from (sun) God and uncanny longevity... the latter being commonplace amongst his royal brethren...
Root?
Question: is it okay to include spoilers for the book here, in the list of Root's appearances? I guess so, since it would be pretty silly to read this page and not expect to be spoiled, but I'd like to be sure of others' opinion (PaulJ).
It's OK. I put a spoiler warning in the community section. --Pat 12:00, 23 Oct 2003 (PDT)
Comment: As I am the one who put up this "spoiler" I have to ask: is it really that i.e. a spoiler? A monosyllabic response will more than suffice. --Njihia Mbitiru
Question: Should information about Enoch's appearances in Cryptonomicon be under this entry, even though it falls under the Quicksilver namespace? I'm sort of assuming that Enoch will be in all four books that make up... er, whatever the series of books is called that is the Baroque Cycle + Cryptonomicon, so that may complicate things further. Seeing as how Enoch is the biggest enigma so far (and thus perhaps most worthy of elaboration upon), it seems like there should be a good way to handle him.
Given that Cryptonomicon stands sort of apart from the Baroque Cycle, is it worthwhile to have two separate entries for Enoch? Somebody who has just finished Quicksilver might assume that reading his entry under Quicksilver is spoiler-free, only to have some of his actions in Cryptonomicon spoiled. -- Stephen Keller
Any mention of Doctor Dee's Enochian Alphabet yet? * http://www.omniglot.com/writing/enochian.htm -- Sparky
BTW - Barbarossa or "Redbeard" (c. 1465-1546): Raised on Lesbos, he moved to Djerba with his three brothers when their father died. Scorning both the weakness of the Muslim rulers and the presence of Iberian invaders in North Africa, the brothers undertook a campaign of brutal piracy. They formed a principality on Djidjelli, but Spain captured their land in 1518. Barbarossa, now the head of the family, was saved from annihilation by the sultan of Turkey, and for the rest of his life he worked for the sultan. He conquered Tunis for the Ottomans (1534) and permanently loosened Spain's grip on North Africa. * Barbary Pirates Sparky 06:46, 27 Oct 2003 (PST)
And we all know that the color 'red' sounds like 'root' in Germanic languages. Sparky 06:46, 27 Oct 2003 (PST)
Slight correction - the color red in German is spelled 'Rot' and pronounced like the English word 'rote'. The double 'o' phoneme is pronounced like an English long 'oh' sound as in the word Boot, meaning 'boat' and pronounced the same as the English word. Ergo, although incorrect, the word 'Rot' can be spelled 'Root' without losing its pronunciation or meaning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor leads us to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_hero
Beardless Root?
In the end we're guessing —
likely badly…
Linking Enoch to Frederick offers an explanation for spastic longevity... Sparky 16:32, 31 Oct 2003 (PST)
- ... whoa — just read an interview where Neal says it is the same Enoch in both books ... Sparky 05:22, 12 Nov 2003 (PST)
Who is Enoch Root? He's the author, or some avatar thereof. That would explain his immortality, his slightly aloof mystery, his wide-ranging and anachronistic knowledge (such as nutritional iron for treating blood loss), and his general benevolence. Ashley Y 02:49, Nov 13, 2003 (PST)
How prophetic is Enoch's vision of the Charles River Basin? Do High Tech labs flourish? I've only seen the immediate area around Boston's 'Combat Zone' during WorldCon 1980. Sparky 18:04, 2003 Nov 16 (PST)
Sparky, you wouldn't believe it if you went into Cambridge, just across the harbor. Most of the companies sound like ones you'd hear in "Austin Powers" BioGen, Genzyme, etc. :Ron Adams 01:57, Dec 31, 2003 (PST)
In Cryptonomicon, does Root really appear at the hospital where Goto Dengo stays before his Golgatha travails? I always thought that priest was called Father Ferdinand. When Root and Goto Dengo meet in Manila, Root explicitly denies having talked to the latter's priest. Ferdinand might be a member of Soc. Eruditorum, too. In addition, Goto Dengo's son seems to be named after Ferdinand. Hwilker 10:06, 21 Jan 2004 (PST) * We meet Goto Ferdinand at the Crypt first. The next Ferdinand mentioned is the one with gold - Marcos... then in Chapter 62: INRI:
Time to change the subject. “Ignoti et quasi occulti--Societas Eruditorum,” says Goto Dengo, reading the inscription on a medallion that hangs from Father Ferdinand's neck. “More Latin? What does it mean?” “It is an organization I belong to. It is ecumenical.” “What does that mean?” “Anyone can join it. Even you, after you get better.” “I will get better,” Goto Dengo says. ”No one will know that I was sick.” “Except for us. Oh, I understand! You mean, no Nipponese people will know. That's true.” “But the others here will not get better.” “It is true. You have the best prognosis of any patient here.” “You are receiving those sick Nipponese men into your bosoms.” “Yes. This is more or less dictated by our religion.” “They are low people now. You want them to join your low-person religion.” “Only insofar as it is good for them,” says Father Ferdinand. “It's not like those guys are going to run out and build us a new cathedral or something.” - Sparky 16:47, 2004 Jan 21 (PST)
One aspect of Enoch is that He seems to know what is going on, making him, something of the "Man Behind the Scenes". He is in the right place at the right time, and, he is also the Element which ties All of the Others together -- He is the Unifying Link between the Various, Main players. But, Why is Enoch Root considered, by many, a more interesting, and Important, character than Jack? timberbee 10:22, 7 Feb 2004 (PST)
Most Shaftoes' faults aren't as interesting as Enoch's — perhaps? -- Sparky 16:28, 2004 Feb 7 (PST)
JAVA Cafe au Lait Summation: * Isaac Newton invents calculus, governments rise, governments fall, a few small wars take place mostly off camera, and the beginnings of the modern stock markets get going in Amsterdam and London. * The one notable exception is the middle third of the book, the rather picaresque adventures of one Jack Shaftoe. * Enoch Root shows up at several times and locations throughout the book. He does seem to have an interest in alchemy, at least in its more chemical, less mystical form. At one point late in the novel he does provide some medicine for one character, but it's not the magic cure-all he's toting around in Cryptonomicon, just a mild anaesthetic. Whatever's in the cigar box, he doesn't appear to have it in the 17th century. * … [A] few hints about the Societas Eruditorum. It's possible this was founded in the 17th century by Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz as a German or Continental response to London's Royal Society. The Societas Eruditorum plays no major role in this book. * Leibniz, however, does — along with: + William III + Louis XIV + Edward Teach + Benjamin Franklin + John Wilkins + Bonaventure Rossignol + Robert Hooke
So - my eyes watered as I read The Confusion's page 549. How do the theories come on now? and should Confusion spoilers get separate warnings, in the mould of the Cryptonomicon idea above? Deusnatura 15:32, 16 Apr 2004 (PDT) 23:32 16 04 04 Let others catch up to you. Add Authored pages at The Confusion the way Neal does. If you need spoilers -- write SPOILERS on top -- and Pat and I will make them properly formatted. - Sparky 20:11, 2004 Apr 16 (PDT)
While rereading The Confusion I have come to believe that Enoch Root is actually King Solomon. The various discussions (see esp Eliza & Newton) concerning Solomon would appear to describe someone along the lines of Enoch Root. - charwood2 14:35, 2004 Jun 19 (MDT) I would love to see the expansion of this. The real Solomon was just human. And it wouldn't explain why Enoch is a man of the cloth later. - Sparky Well, seems there is a Solomon in the tale after all. But it isn't Enoch. - Sparky 20:47, 2004 Oct 22 (PDT)
Enoch Root dies, but doesn't. Hmm
- In The Diamond Age the character PhyrePhox (p. 139ff) might be another manifestation of Root. He has red hair. He is immune to pain. He travels to rural areas to resuce orphaned baby girls. He is member of the CryptNet, a probable secrect society, in which he has a level of 25, when the highest level is thought to be ten. (I welcome discussion on this hypothesis)
That he may be the prototype? That's a worthy thought. - Sparky
While that is certainly a possibitlity I have the belief that Enoch Root, in The Baroque Cycle and Crptonomicon, is actually a stand in For the Primer itself. Beyond his timelessness is the fact that he is the One who understands what is going on, Almost ALL the time (an exception is his first appearance in Quicksilver, when he Apparently misjudged the situation), none-the-less, Like the Primer, he is a guiding hand, There whenever he is needed, in a most extraordinary manner, and, in the case of The Baroque Cycle he is there for each member of the Cabal, not merely for Jack, nor Eliza, nor Daniel. He was the one who recognized Newton, at a very early age. He certainly is responsible, as is the Primer, for recognizing and acting. Whatever is going on here, He is at the Core of it. timberbee
You are saying that he is The Primer of the Baroque Cycle universe? Understandable. The fact that his own concious memory of distant past events needs to be Primed by the knowledge of other concious Players in the Story implies this possibility, however he also seems to be playing a part as well, particularly in organizing the rescue of 50,000 chinese girls in his PhyrPhox persona along with Dr. X. That he also entices Miranda into entering the Drummer society and is at the core of the distributed conspiracy to create The Seed implies more than observer status. WRT Baroque Cycle events, he is key in obtaining Sophie's capital to support the construction of the ship, which uses the Solomonic Gold as hull plating and ballast, as a means of returning that gold to Europe. - Mike Lorrey
I have had numerous theories over the years as to the nature of Enoch Root but my latest one reached after rereading some old SFX magazines is that he is like Quantum Leap's Sam Beckett. He does have a habit of popping up at crucial moments in characters lives and steering their actions in particular directions.
"...driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. ...And so Dr. Beckett finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home." electricinca That is most interesting, Electricinca, I was not aware that Turing Certified A.I.'s had an apetite for bad literature. Perhaps this is what makes you so... Human. timberbee
Two recent obit struck me as pertinent:
A Papuan leads an Australian infantryman to a
New Guinea field hospital in a 1942 image by
George Silk. In 1939, at the outset of the
war, he got a job as a combat photographer
for the Australian army. (George Silk / AP) 1. AP WWII photog George Silk - especially his New Guinea pictures. 2. Yo-yo king Bill Liebowitz
Being unused to this wiki, I'd added the John Dee connection to the page without spotting this discussion... oh well. It may also be of interest given some of the above discussion that Ignoti et quasi occulti in hoc mundo is in fact the motto of the Society of Mary, a Catholic order that did missionary work in the South Seas. 1. Also not mentioned here: the 'mark of Cain' is supposedly red hair, so presumably the first Enoch was a redhead. Also - the Solomon references - isn't it easier to link Root to King David (a redhead, root of the house?). 2. My own opinion is that he's just the author-as-deus-ex-machina, hence his existence outside time, but the Quicksilver characters perception of him has been based on John Dee. -- BrianEwins
- The Enochian alphabet is somewhere - Maybe near Bacon ... Talk:Stephenson:Neal:Quicksilver:Cryptosystems mentions Dee. I grew up on Michael Morrcock's odd Jerry Cornelius / Una Person etc Time/Sidereal Universe Metaverse fiction ... (The Cure for Cancer/The English Assassin and the wonderful Glorianna among too many ... ) - Sparky 17:13, 2004 Nov 25 (PST)
Though the ever present Red-headed step-child seems to indicate Neal is aware this - The first Enoch is Cain's son; The 2nd Enoch is from Adam and Eve's son Seth's line not Cain's ... The biblical Jared was the son of Mahalalel and the father of Enoch. The word is of archaic Hebrew origin, meaning "the descendant". - Sparky
TODO: Possible reorganization: * no warnings for Cryptonomicon. * spoiler warnings separately for Quicksilver, * Confusion, & * SotW. * Move speculation to another page. * Self-reminder: there's an awesomely spoiler/misleading title Crypto page...
Thoughts? - Pronoiac 05:24, 13 Dec 2004 (PST)
Yes - try. But this original article is my favorite one. - Sparky
The Practice Effect by David Brin, a science fiction novel. Recommended reding for all persons calling themselves reader. Ignore the time travel motive, think about laws of thermodynamics, energy, life, intelligence, heat, quantum thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, evolution, The Tree of Life, DNA, white noise and me. A.A
I am sorry for being impolite. Please accept my apology. It was not my intention to subvert anothers' attribution. Howgh. ALinkA
Discussion:
- Consider: how many dimensions our universe there is at reach.
- The definition of dimension.
-
Perfect topology AND structure for a secret society considering the process of movement of datastream of data structures containing information in binary class universe using signal AND knowledge management within it Self.
-
Morphogenetic field, or soul.
- Position, oppose location.
ha ha when I was in elemental school I was entertaining my Self by memorising the digits of pi. When this activity was reported by one of my "friends" to the teacher of mathemathics (I willt she die a painful death) she nearly screamed at me not to do this and then ridiculed me for it for some time...A.A
Snow Crash
Enoch is referenced in Snow Crash, isn't he? He's described as the first 'hacker' (in the programming sense), if my memory serves...
[Enoch does not appear in Snow Crash -- you're thinking of the Sumerian god Enki, portrayed in Snow Crash as the first hacker.]
Emanuel Lagos might be a candidate, if he were not conclusively dead at the hands of Raven. He'd have to have some real powers of rejuvination to survive that one. I would suggest that he is instead an un-named co-conspirator with Emanuel, Juanita, Uncle Enzo, Mr. Lee, and Ng prior to Hiro's arrival on the scene, who we do not see or hear about. It appears the only appearance of Enoch in Snow Crash is his possible origin as the God Enki.
Enoch is the tool of the author not Neal. Neal has the the young Vincent Price look whereas Enoch is just this redheaded immortal ... -Sparky
I would love some feedback on this. I'll troll this post regularly to view any edits or responses. SC
Looking at Owen Glendowner as a 'Sleeping King' -- more research to do ...
OWEN GLENDOWER (Owain Glyndwr) 1354(?) - 1416 (?)
The followers of Owen Glendower, the medieval Welsh nationalist leader who disappeared in about 1415, firmly believed that should Wales be in any danger from the English, he would return and free them from oppression.
His name is still remembered and revered today.
Owen Glyn D?r, Owen of the Glen of Dee Water, was born about the year 1354, the exact date is unknown. He claimed descent from Llewelyn the Great and the ruling princes of Wales.
He was the heir to two of the four great princely houses of Wales and was well educated in London after his father's death in 1370. He enjoyed the fashionable 'finishing school' type of education of the Inns of Court.
He went on to serve the crown as a soldier in Scotland, and wearing a scarlet, flamingo feather as his crest, he drove the Scotsmen before him with only the butt of his broken lance!
He later married the daughter of an Anglo-Welsh judge, fathering six sons with remarkable speed, and led a very peaceful life on his pleasant estates.
But in September, 1400, when he was 50, for reasons unknown, he organised a rebellion against the English king, Henry IV and claimed the title, Prince of Wales.
He suddenly became popular and Welsh students, seeing in him the leader they had been looking for, left their universities and joined him. Welsh labourers threw down their hoes and joined the national uprising!
Owen's cause grew fast - in 1401, despite English expeditions to north and south Wales his stature grew as a national hero.
In 1402 the sighting of a great comet in the sky was taken by Owen's followers to be a sign of victory and they captured Owen's enemy Reginald Grey of Ruthin. Ruthin was later released on the payment of a ransom of £6,666.
Owen was blessed with a sound common sense, and when Edmund Mortimer, the King's nephew was captured, he did not demand a ransom for him, but married him to his daughter Catherine. Now Owen was on course for not only the throne of Wales, but for England too!
Owen continued to fight the English but after a heavy defeat at Woodbury Hill near Worcester he retreated to Wales.
In Wales, Owen issued the Pennal manifesto on the future of the Welsh Church and was supported by most of the churchmen. Not all of the churchmen were loyal however :-
Before the battle of Pwll Melyn, the story goes that a friar had preached with great spirit that all who fell in the battle would sup that night in heaven! As it became obvious that defeat was in the wind, the friar tried to slip away, but some soldiers caught him and pointed out to him that he was missing the chance of a heavenly banquet; he smartly informed them that this was one of his fast days, and scurried away.
By now, one by one, Owen's castles were falling to the English, his wife and children were captured, and by 1410 he had become a hunted bandit.
Yet he lived on and was never captured!
Where did he go? His whereabouts were never known, only fragments of information kept coming until 1416 when he was believed to have died somewhere in Herefordshire.
So, even if Owen Glendower was not perhaps as successful as he wanted to be, his name and exploits still make him a hero in Welsh history, and rightly so! - Sparky 21:03, 2005 Feb 23 (PST)
On pi - ha ha when I was in Elementary School I was entertaining myself by memorising the digits of pi. When this activity was reported by one of my "friends" to the teacher of mathemathics (I willt she die a painful death) she nearly screamed at me not to do this and then ridiculed me for it for some time...A.A
Bumped into the very friendly Patrick McGoohan at breakfast. Wooo! He'd make a wonderful Enoch. - Sparky 09:51, 2005 Jun 17 (PDT)
Protecting the page because of vandal spammers. Temporary. - Sparky 20:44, 2006 Apr 20 (PDT)
I'm surprised not to see this mentioned here already, but by the end of The Baroque Cycle I had come to the conclusion (this may be a spoiler) that Enoch Root was the Biblical Enoch, who was "taken up so that he should not see death" [Hebrews 11:5, Revised Standard Version]. Biblical scholars are no doubt divided on the meaning of this, but there is at least room for interpretations that conclude that this Enoch was granted immortality by God. That Enoch is mentioned early in the article; Someone should bring up the Enoch from Push NV - the short lived TV show...