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Metaweb talk:Faction

From the Quicksilver Metaweb.

Prove to me this is not moot; or worse pointlessly silly political positioning. - Sparky 19:28, 2004 Feb 24 (PST)

Why would anyone have to do that? In real world systems where anyone can have a say, there are tendencies, parties, factions, and all of politics as usual. If you argue that in a big wiki with equally broad participation that these things aren't necessary, the onus is on you to prove why that would be so.

If you hate the word faction, then use Neal's word and call this a Metaweb:phyle...

I don't mind the term faction, assuming you have more than two people expressing the same view in opposition to the administrators on Metaweb, but the degree of membership usage has yet to reach such a level, and shouldn't factions have to declare themselves? The use of phyle is wholly inappropriate, as a phyle, in the stephensonian sense, is one which describes an entire culture and/or associated FOQNE. You haven't the numbers to call a faction a phyle, you don't even have a Mouse Army, and Princess Nell had to go and get herself a quarter million Mouse Warriors to be considered her own phyle by Queen Victoria. - Mike Lorrey 10:26 28 Jan 2005 EST

I don't even dislike the word - you have the semantics wrong.

As useful as muscular Christianity as a literary theme in Boy's Life-type adolescent fantasies is trying to make political all actions like an effort in Education. - Sparky 02:03, 2004 Mar 13 (PST)

In Diamond Age, education is factionally defined and controlled, very clearly. Each phyle has its own way of doing it. If you aren't willing to copy Stephenson's model quite closely, then, what are we doing here? And if you think there is politically neutral education, you are really quite alone. I can't think of a single educational theorist that would say more than that you are trying to honestly reflect the civilization's values, with some shaping towards its ideals, in education. It is never in any way culturally neutral.

  • No one is claiming that was ideal or right — ok?

Only StSparky said it could be any other way. Neal didn't.

  • Not what was written or said — Nor would I say I'm alone. We merely disagree. Education should be neutral and non-political. Involvment of caring mentors, teachers and parents shouldn't be viewed as a breach of neutrality.

"neutrality" can't mean much then.

  • Perhaps we should define the word then?

Please remember that Snow Crash & The Diamond Age are fiction and not blueprints; Some of us like the ideas as presented. And exploring the basics of education one can read: “Education encompasses teaching and learning specific skills, and also something less tangible but more profound: the imparting of knowledge, good judgement and wisdom. … Education begins the minute a baby is born and is life-long. Education may even begin before birth as evidenced by some parents playing music or reading to the baby in the womb in the hope it will influence (educate) their child before birth. For some, the struggles and triumphs of daily life are far more instructive than formal schooling (Thus Mark Twain: "I never let school interfere with my education.") Family members have an educational effect which is quite profound -- often more profound than they realize -- though family teaching techniques may be highly informal. …” - Sparky 16:26, 2004 Mar 18 (PST)

Neutral defined

\Neu "tral \ 1. [n]   one who does not side with any party in a war or dispute, A person or a nation that takes no part in a contest between others; one who is neutral. 2. [adj]   lacking hue; " neutral colors like back or white " 3. [adj]   lacking distinguishing quality or characteristics; " a neutral personality that made no impression whatever " 4. [adj]   not supporting or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest 5. [adj]   neither moral nor immoral; neither good nor evil, right nor wrong 6. [adj]   having no personal preference; impersonal criticism; " a neutral observer " 7. [adj]   of no distinctive quality or characteristics or type 8. [adj]  (physics) — having no net electric charge;not electrified 9. [adj]  (chemistry) — having only a limited ability to react chemically; not active; " inert matter "; " an indifferent chemical in areaction " ”The neutral, as far as commerce extends, becomes a party in the war.” — R.G.Harper.

Webster's

  1. Not engaged on either side;not taking part with or assisting either of two or more contending parties;neuter;indifferent. “The heart can not possibly remain neutral, but constantly takes part one way or the other.” — Shaftesbury.
  2. Neither good nor bad;of medium quality;middling; not decided or pronounced. “ Some things good,and some things ill, do seem, And neutral some, in her fantastic eye” — Sir J.Davies.
  3. (Biol.) Neuter. See {Neuter}, a., 3. A. (Chem.) Having neither acid nor basic properties;unable to turn red litmus blue or blue litmus red; -- said of certain salts or other compounds. Contrasted with {acid}, and {alkaline}. B. {Neutral axis}, {Neutral surface} (Mech.), that line or plane,in abeam under transverse pressure,at which the fibers are neither stretched nor compressed,or where the longitudinal stress is zero. See {Axis}. C. {Neutral equilibrium} (Mech.), the kind of equilibrium of abody so placed that when moved slighty it neither tends to return to its former position not depart more widely from it,as aperfect sphere or cylinder on ahorizontal plane. D. {Neutral salt} (Chem.), asalt formed by the complete replacement of the hydrogen in an acid or base;in the former case by apositive or basic,in the latter by anegative or acid,element or radical. E. {Neutral tint}, abluish gray pigment,used in water colors,made by mixing indigo or other blue some warm color. the shades vary greatly. F. {Neutral vowel}, the vowel element having an obscure and indefinite quality,such as is commonly taken by the vowel in many unaccented syllables. It is regarded by some as identical with the [u^] in up,and is called also the {natural vowel}, as unformed by art and effort.

Remember Doctor X's complaint that the Mouse Army had become too un-Chinese? ;-) He would have preferred a system that allowed his phyle to determine at least some customizations... and we WOULD like to get into China, wouldn't we? ;-) But we would also like not to be overwhelmed by thousands of funded trolls spouting a strict Maoist line, or even Confucianism. If there will be alleged or collective identity, and there will be, then there must be a way of saying "them over there" that is not amenable to much abuse. That would be the faction. Though you probably volunteer for a phyle, though, the online version is probably a category the rest put you in, at least for management purposes. Trolls, Sysops, Developers are factions, but technology driven ones.

  1. Please show everyone here who is funding trolls? Are you being funded? Can you spread the cash around?

If all ethical trolling succeeded, then, civilization would exist. When it does, we'll happily share the wealth. 1. Phyles come across as tribes of a modern sort that are a temporary barrier to assimilation. 2. Girls in China have it bad as always. 3. Education is neutral when done right. 4. We're in China; Blame that Capitalist Running Dog Richard Nixon if you must — I do. * As to the fictional mouse army — their future will blend other phyles into the Celestial Kingdom and thus neutralize the threat while moving everyone into the future. - Eh? Sparky

No doubt Doctor X would see this as values-neutral education. ;-D But ok as noted phyles can be temporary and still useful, or essential, to reflect:

  • How about you create an entry for Doctor X then?

I have to put this into more coherent thought later. - Sparky 03:48, 2004 Mar 14 (PST)

Do girls anywhere have it good? "Temporary" maybe, but so is all software, and all data. The phyle solves a problem, as does the tribe. If we try to ignore it, we will experience that problem until we invent something similar. Metaweb:faction is at least a useful experiment, and maybe also a feature. It seems essential at least for alleged identities, like when you think a whole lot of IP numbers are actually one troll. You could be much more neutral by saying "hmm this appears to be from a faction" and having some civilized means of inter-faction resolution such as NS "Common Economic Protocol]" (sic?). Let's not fall to the virtual community ideology where somehow technology magically makes all this need for formality go away!

  • BTW — It was an angry self-confessed troll at that. And linked to a person whose posts were consistently peppered with empty links ... tracking this person's spoor over the web led to weird places ... -Sparky

With 500-odd articles here and 300,000 in English at Wikipedia, it would be unusual if 295,500/300,000 > 99% of the links were not open or empty up front, if the article is in final form. How big do you want Metaweb to get? The number of open links is an important guide in wikis to the desired final size.

  • We mean different things. We don't have that many empty links.

Lots of people claim to be trolls now. It's a status symbol of sorts.

  • I'd prefer to see an Ent or Entwife. I can't grok the negative odd behavior observed in real trolls, how could it be a status symbol to anybody.

You are reading propaganda. The true definition of a troll will clear everything up. Also read anything by Xah Lee. * I've observed behavior here and elsewhere. I know the Frouds and some of the Hensons, there's not much you can tell me of trolls in fiction; What are your goals? Xah is ten years too young, but smart. Know one nice Chinese American girl and another Chinese girl in Japan who'd flip for him 1. Yes Girls have it good in some countries. The one I'm in is very girl friendly.

Rape comix and all? OK, at least they're just comix.

  • What's healthy is the rape comix work both ways — there's always payback. Oddly & on whole the society is not violent.

  • Phyles are tribes as I view it. One can be isolated in a group and coerced into actions that are harmful to the individual.

NO, no, no. YOU have the semantics wrong. A tribe is a sort of degraded phyle that shares ethnicity and culture but not a single coherent value system. When someone comes along who opposes the ethnicity and fights the culture but shares all the values, a phyle welcomes them, but a tribe kills them. Completely different. * Not observed the above. Know that female circumcision STILL occurs in Africa180px-Fgm_map.gif
Prevalence of female
cirumcision in Africa 1. Metaweb:Factions are welcome. I'd prefer a way of identification which perserved their Anonymity tho such as Anomynous User Alpha NaughtNaught, Anomynous User Alpha NaughtOne, and so forth. So far — we've the one troll. I don't care if an opinion is promoted by a faction, tribe, chop shop or phyle. I would like to see honesty about their goal or agenda.

Yes, that's the whole point: honesty about agenda. Very Confucian. And collective and alleged identity is best assumed to be factional until shown otherwise. Being psychiatric about it on day one is very stupid, and creates conflict. Good thing we trolls know to take it as a compliment. This concept that "Education is neutral when done right" seems idiosyncratic. Do you have ANY references, authorities, experts that say so? Seems like the failed neutral point of view ideology re-emerging again.

  • RE Neutral Point of View — I don't think it's failed, it's not clearly failed here. We augment it here. The thing is we contributors know we're dealing with a fictional universe on the boundary where it interacts with the real world AS WE KNOW IT.

Bah. It's neutrality only of those bothering to argue. And even there it's more of an [http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_wars|edit war of attrition]. Yes, the knowledge that you're dealing with fiction and limited knowledge of the so-called real world does help. So it might work here. But its failed as an ethic at Wikipedia, though it might be said to operate there as an ideology, a rationale without much substance. * We disagree. Maybe it is a generational observation - Sparky 17:49, 2004 Mar 18 (PST) 1. Education is neutral when done right is an axiom. 2. Kids understand the concept of bias and balance. They can SMELL pressure. 3. Therefore, if informed, an education will be neutral and without political pressuring. IE — I would go to summer school at a Boy's Religious School during 8th and 9th grade. I had to deal with religious promotional pressure from teachers. I didn't share their religion and resisted. It gave me good training in dealing with evangelists later. All my peers share similar political views though we participate via different parties.

How do you know whether you resisted their ideology or developed a counter ideology?

  • That I'm not one of them — and I've a repertoire of tricks in dealing with the most obnoxious of their proponents which I've used in the past.
  • Nice quote: Lenin said politics was about "who could do what to whom" which should not be passed along like bad karma to school kids.

They'll figure that out when they encounter a real politician. ;-O

  1. No one is asking for your ideologies here though modern input on Tories and Whigs would be appreciated.

No one wants to promote or spread any ideology here. Just note those that already exist. It's always fair to ask a two-party system to exist first. We could call the Tories those who believe that neutral point of view exists and Whigs those who doubt it, for instance.

  • See - Whigs and Tories are pertinent to reading Quicksilver.
  • The addition of an Authored page balances the Neutral POV set for community-edited pages which support many viewpoints.

But you need a halfway, for those reasons you mention: honesty of agenda. I don't know what Metaweb:faction or real world party or whatever that an IP number or random name belongs to. There is something between "Authored" and "Neutral", and that thing is the faction/phyle/tribe/cult/clan/chop_shop. * And why does an individual want to pretend to be a group?

They might be fronting for a shy or ineloquent or disadvantaged or persecuted group, sort of like a lawyer. That group might be far more prevalent in the real world than in the virtual community, and being systemically lied about.

They might want to bring in others of their group, and this is easier if the views are represented

They might not be "pretending", but simply presenting the view of a group, so that they can later lay out their own views in contrast to those of any group - which might require laying out the well known or prevalent group views in depth.

Aren't most politicians individuals pretending to be a group? etc.

  • Your POV on Politicians can't be as cynical as mine. To the idea of a individual hiding behind a front — we're all nerds here. This isn't the Palace or AOL where we've the truly socially backward ‘trolling for the opposite sex. I think we could count actual contributors using our fingers and toes. Which would be different from our discreet visitors. So if there is a group - there is no spoor.
  • Nor do I see a reason for a halfway. Define yourself as a group and let your MPS run rampant if needed. Knock yourself out.

The neutral definition would make a nice page of its own. The tribe thing would make a nice page of its own. Good point that a tribe is an historical construct with real impact on real lives right now, today. It is not as much of an abstraction as a phyle or faction. But if you go to the tribes doing this genital mutilation, and say "this is against the core values you claim to hold", the tribe will likely brush you off or chase you out. Whereas a phyle supposedly has a more formal process to at least look at the question. What's nice about phyles as a vision is that they civilize the notion of a tribe, make them co-operate in things like Common Economic Protocol with each other, even if they have quite different rules internally. Which human groups always will. — When there is a baby in the path of a moving steamroller — the correct action is obvious. Harm to female children and their development equals that scenario. The resources are not there yet to for any mass rescue sadly. Dialogue with those who harm others for no reason doesn't seem needed. We can discuss smegma later. - Sparky 17:49, 2004 Mar 18 (PST)

Are we going to see an entry for Doctor X from you?